Friday, May 13, 2005

Pope Benedict Begins Process for Sainthood!!!

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,156418,00.html

30 Comments:

At 10:21 AM, Blogger Rogers Gossett said...

no surprise here.

 
At 10:34 AM, Blogger dcs said...

I can't really say that I think this is a good idea.

 
At 10:50 AM, Blogger st_ignatius110 said...

I think it is. If miracles are happening..then they are happening. If not...then ok. But either way, he is either a saint or he is not.

 
At 11:02 AM, Blogger Dropper said...

But are the miracles happening? I just don't get what the rush is.

I actually heard a woman leading the Rosary this past Sunday at my Traddie parish announce that her intention for one of the decades was the cause for Sainthood of JP II.

I was kinda shocked.

There was a time that this kinda thing took a while. I am not sure why we need it not to.

 
At 11:05 AM, Blogger dcs said...

There's a reason for the five-year waiting period. (Personally, I think it should be even longer.) Moving forward with the late Pope's cause now doesn't allow time for emotions to settle. We should ask whether His Holiness would have wanted his cause to begin immediately, too. Somehow I don't think he would have.

I realize that he is either a saint or he is not (and, in fact, I think all Popes go to heaven eventually), but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't wait some time so that his case can be examined dispassionately.

An interesting side-effect of starting John Paul II's cause now is that all of the Vatican II Popes now have causes moving forward in the Congregation for the Saints.

 
At 11:32 AM, Blogger Chad said...

I'm increasingly convinced this is a mistake as well. It's hard to write history while the events are taking place or while the emotions generated by them are still fresh in the mind. We need the benefit of years to dissect events and come to rational conclusions. Is JPII a saint? I don't know. If what we saw publicly was what he was privately, then probably. But who am I to conclude that when I don't have access to his personal papers or acquaintances or detailed analyses of them?

We shouldn't be giving in to the heat of the moment. Since the beatification process is going forward, I guess we can only pray that calm reasoning will prevail.

 
At 12:11 PM, Blogger st_ignatius110 said...

Here is my thought. The Holy Spirit does indeed guide His Church. If they proclaim John Paul the Second a saint...could they be wrong? Is this possible?

 
At 1:18 PM, Blogger dcs said...

I think most hold that canonizations are infallible. So, for example, whatever we think of Opus Dei we must hold that St. Josemaria Escriva is in heaven. Likewise, whatever we might think about the Pontificate of John Paul II, if he were canonized we would have to believe that he is in heaven. But that doesn't mean that a canonization is necessarily prudent. The Church canonizes saints in order to give us examples of how to lead holy lives. Someone might have led a very evil life, but have repented on his deathbed and gone to heaven. Should the Church canonize such a person? I am not saying that this is even remotely true about the late Pope; I am sure he led quite a holy life. But his life still needs to be examined and for that to be done dispassionately I think a waiting period is prudent. We can't let our emotions guide us in determining who ought to be canonized. Imagine if we let our emotions guide us through our daily lives!!

 
At 2:09 PM, Blogger BekahS. said...

I think that these "fast track" canonizations are a symptom of our immediate gratification oriented society. As such, I think the Church does the faithful a disservice whenever it bows to the demands of the world instead of placing its causes and purpose outside of the world. God's timing is not our timing. Time and again in my life, I have witnessed that in man's view, God moves slowly. By being a constant witness to the superiority of God's timing, the Church teaches the faithful the proper execution of the virtue of patience. There is nothing wrong with waiting. Waiting does not have an effect on the Pope's final destination, and lack of canonization does not mean that the faithful cannot pray privately for his intercession, just as we may pray for the intercession of our own relatives who have gone before us, but may never be recognized by the Church.

Now more than ever we need the Church's clear example that its ways are superior to those of the world. She should not cave to the pressures of the world, but instead extoll virtue.

 
At 2:39 PM, Blogger st_ignatius110 said...

But his life still needs to be examined and for that to be done dispassionately I think a waiting period is prudent.


But I thought the waiting period was just that. A waiting period. No research on his life, no nothing. It is only after the waiting period that such research begins. I guess the way I am looking at it is like this. They are still going to research his life, they are still going to have to see if miracles can be proven, they still have to do everything the same way. Just because they have begun the research does not mean he will be canonized right away. I am also not certain that our Holy Father Pope Benedict is caving to the worlds wishes. He for sure does not seem to be that type. I don't know...I beleive either which way it will be ok.

 
At 2:43 PM, Blogger dcs said...

It is only after the waiting period that such research begins.

Exactly, because it is after the waiting period that research can be conducted dispassionately. Right now, with emotions running high, and given the tendency of people to see what they want to see . . . well, you can see where that might lead.

 
At 3:26 PM, Blogger st_ignatius110 said...

And yet they bring in atheists, scientists etc to see if miracles can be proven..it is not only Catholics involved with the canonization...there are many involved who want the miracle to be disproven. Correct?

 
At 3:45 PM, Blogger st_ignatius110 said...

Also, again, it would be infallible..so we should not worry...right?

 
At 4:37 PM, Blogger BekahS. said...

What is the reasoning behind expediting the canonization process?

 
At 4:57 PM, Blogger st_ignatius110 said...

I am not sure what the reasonings are...maybe Pope Benedict has seen some things we know nothing about. I don't know. What I do know is that either way..whether they wait or not..the correct decision will indeed be made.

 
At 4:03 AM, Blogger Rogers Gossett said...

http://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/A070rcAssisi_Cults.htm

...says it all, yes? no?

 
At 9:30 AM, Blogger Dropper said...

Pagans desecrating a Catholic basilica at the invitation of John Paul "the great"??

Unbelievable except for the people who already knew that...

I do think he was a man that personified holiness. He was also a man who made terrible, terrible mistakes as offerings at the altar of ecumenism.

Do I think he is in heaven? Probably. But for as much holiness that he exuded he was still flawed as we all are.

 
At 12:34 PM, Blogger BekahS. said...

Iggy,
That is the problem. If there are no evident good reasons for speeding up the process, why is it good to tamper with tradition? I see no reason not to wait, except to satisfy the masses. And I don't believe that is a good reason at all.

 
At 8:27 PM, Blogger ZF said...

Despite my misgivings about the "waiver" I am please to see destinctions being reinstated between the beatification and canonization ceremonies.

 
At 10:16 AM, Blogger Justso said...

frankly, it sickens me to see the rules continued to be tossed aside to serve at the whim of whoever benefits by the bending of the rule. No, the rules are the rules, because we beleve the rules are the truth. If we change the rules, then what are we saying? The truth is changeable?

I think for too long now, the Church has been caving to the court of public opinion, so it's no suprise here with what's going on. Even before his death, we were hearing John Paul the Great. I'm not going to argue for or against "the great," I'm just making the point that for Pope Benedict or Father anyone, to toss aside the rules of the Roman Catholic Church because they "feel it's right" is ridiculous. But, for the modern Church, this is par for the course.

 
At 9:43 AM, Blogger st_ignatius110 said...

Did we feel the same way when John Paul the Second did not wait the allotted amount of time in regards to Mother Theresa?

 
At 9:48 AM, Blogger st_ignatius110 said...

Also, the above website that was given said that these photos can be found on the Vatican website...anyone know where they are on the website?

 
At 2:43 PM, Blogger dcs said...

Did we feel the same way when John Paul the Second did not wait the allotted amount of time in regards to Mother Theresa?

IIRC I wasn't comfortable with it. But then I hadn't been Catholic for very long at the time. More disturbing to me, I think, was the rush to canonize St. Josemaria Escriva. Water under the bridge, I guess.

 
At 3:17 PM, Blogger st_ignatius110 said...

I don't know. I mean, I see what you all are saying..but if it is infallible why worry? A mistake cannot be made.

 
At 3:30 PM, Blogger dcs said...

Because a canonization has a symbolic value over and above being simply an infallible statement that person X is in heaven. It is giving the faithful an example of how to live their lives.

And while canonizations are generally held to be infallible (but if that's true, why was St. Philomena removed from the Calendar), beatifications are not.

Why change something without a very good reason?

What happens when the faithful are clamoring for the canonization of someone less saintly than John Paul II?

 
At 3:40 PM, Blogger st_ignatius110 said...

Because a canonization has a symbolic value over and above being simply an infallible statement that person X is in heaven. It is giving the faithful an example of how to live their lives.

And you do not agree with the way Pope John Paul the Second lived his life...right? Well, that may be to general of a statement...but I think you may have problems with saying he is a saint.If I am wrong do correct me.

And while canonizations are generally held to be infallible (but if that's true, why was St. Philomena removed from the Calendar), beatifications are not.

I did not know Saint Philomena was removed from the calender..does that mean that this saint is no longer a saint? I am not sure what that means...is there nothing speaking on whether a canonization is infallible or not?

Why change something without a very good reason?

I don't know. But there is nothing wrong with changing a rule either.

What happens when the faithful are clamoring for the canonization of someone less saintly than John Paul II?

To be honest, I am not worried about this. I have not seen it happen and I don't think it would. But by this statment what you are saying is that Pope Benedict...the man who stood against the Nazis in the face of death...is merely succumbing to the whims of the people. I think that is untrue.

 
At 5:12 PM, Blogger BekahS. said...

>> Did we feel the same way when John Paul the Second did not wait the allotted amount of time in regards to Mother Theresa?<<

I was not Catholic at the time and really had no opinion at all about it.

Jeni,
I would like to separate the individual involved (JPII) from the larger picture. I believe JPII is probably in heaven, and I believe that if the Church pronounces it, it can be relied on with certitude.

But, the larger issue involved is that this is not a "rule change", for if it was it would be changed for everyone. Instead, this is an exception made to the rule, without clarifying the purpose of it. I am uncomfortable with the Church seemingly bending the rules for a popular favorite. It has nothing whatsoever to do with what I personally believe about JPII. By bending the rules in this manner, it sends a signal to Catholics (many of which already have some doubt over the authority of the Church) that there can be exceptions to existing rules, and the rules can be bent for reason. I'm not so sure that this is the sort of message we need to be sending right now, especially when no harm is done by following the traditional procedure.

Nowhere am I stating that the procedure regarding the canonization process is absolute and cannot be altered, but I am merely taking issue with the way this is being done: as an exception. If there is a good reason, I'd like to hear it. Former precedence for the exception, or popular demand, to me is not good reason.

 
At 5:40 PM, Blogger st_ignatius110 said...

I understand what you are saying. I think it would be ridiculous for a Catholic to use this as an excuse that the Church has no authority over them. If anyone has the right to change or bend a rule it is the Church. Not the laity. And if the Church chooses to do so I am not sure I see such a big problem with it.
I agree with you on asking for an explanation as to why this rule is not actually being changed and instead is only an exception. But, I guess, either way, the turn out will be the same. And if a Catholic decideds the Church has no authority over him, it was not this exception that made him beleive that. If anything, at least to me, it would show the Church is the One with the authority. But anyway, I see what you are saying..thanks for the discussion...I'll keep studying it and let you know.

 
At 1:42 PM, Blogger BekahS. said...

Well, you know, someone who is looking for reasons to rebel will use anything they can grab. I'm just saying that we should be careful not to give them more excuses than necessary. Obviously someone who is educated will know better, but the people that would look at this and use it as an excuse are not educated. That's all I'm saying. I do look forward to JPII's sainthood being proclaimed. I have already prayed for his intercession for our Church. But I'm just not sure an exception is wise or necessary. ;)

 
At 2:10 PM, Blogger st_ignatius110 said...

I do understand what you are saying on this one.

 

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